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Former Member
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Use Occam's Razor if you wish but it's a bit like shaving your face with a sewing machine. Occam's Raor, as your quote suggests, addresses how we should treat different explanations for the same observable phenomena. We are not trying to explain observable phenomena, we are looking for something we don't have. Your series of steps A and B are not 2 different explanations for the same phenomenon but rather waypoints along a search path. Nope, William of Ockham said nothing about searching for hidden treasure.


This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.


Occam's razor can still be applied here, although perhaps not in the strictest sense of the definition. It is still better to choose a solution to a problem with fewer assumptions.

We have very intelligent people working on this problem. We should not just sit on our couches twiddling our thumbs waiting for aliens to come and solve all of our problems.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 30, 2006 1:34:25 AM]
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Former Member
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

My brother-in-law is Inuit. Mike says that in the north you must always keep your eyes and ears open for Nanug, always. Mike says you must find Nanug before he finds you because Nanug fears nothing and does nothing but search for you. If he finds you before you find him then you will likely die. Could be true for aliens too.


I thought the aliens were supposed to cure AIDS (as your previous post stated), not kill us? d oh
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Former Member
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Occam's razor can still be applied here, although perhaps not in the strictest sense of the definition. It is still better to choose a solution to a problem with fewer assumptions.


Very well, let's apply Occam's Razor. Let's begin by taking your explanation B and expanding it to list all the assumptions and entities you so conveniently left out when you prepped the battlefield in your favor. Your version of B is:

B. Rigorous searching through all known chemical compounds through virtual screening discovers many potential candidates which bind to many different HIV proteins (protease, integrase, gp120, gp41, etc.)

Your B implies the following assumptions:

1. one of the chemical compounds we know of binds to HIV proteins
2. the software we use to model the binding will actually do the job
3. a myriad of unknown and uncontrolled home computers owned and operated by less than technically trained people (i.e. amateurs and wanabees) will not miss the compound we seek
4. the results are not being tampered with by malicious hackers on a relatively open and unsecure network with a million entry points
5. WCG's servers have not been compromised by hackers smarter than them
6. we are actually running the software mentioned in #2 above and not balancing ledgers for banks and businesses around the world

Ooops! Your B has 6 assumptions whereas my A has only 4. Are you sure we should apply Occam's Razor? (yes, I claim A to be mine, because you dumped it on me and also because it seems to be winning now smile )

I also submit that there may be thousands of planets supporting alien life. That would increase the chance of finding aliens.

We have very intelligent people working on this problem. We should not just sit on our couches twiddling our thumbs waiting for aliens to come and solve all of our problems.


But we are not sitting on couches waiting. We ARE crunching FAAH (presumably) and we ARE actively seeking aliens. Seems to me both methods have much the same chance for success if you apply Occam's Razor.
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Former Member
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

My brother-in-law is Inuit. Mike says that in the north you must always keep your eyes and ears open for Nanug, always. Mike says you must find Nanug before he finds you because Nanug fears nothing and does nothing but search for you. If he finds you before you find him then you will likely die. Could be true for aliens too.


I thought the aliens were supposed to cure AIDS (as your previous post stated), not kill us? d oh


I drew no firm conclusions as to their intentions. I only list possibilities that should motivate us to see if they are out there. They may help us or they may seek to marinate us and roast us over coals. Either way we should seek them out, see what we can learn about their intentions and determine how they define dinner before they find us. It's just sensible defense policy IMHO.
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

An interesting discussion. Basic research versus applied research.Hmmmmmm. Both have something going in their favor. With basic research, the results you get may not necessarily be the ones for which you looking or expected, but may nevertheless be important for an entirely unexpected reason. Applied research tends to be more focused with a more well defined goal. Perhaps quicker to get to its goal, but with less chance for a purely serendipitous finding.

Cheers

Sgt.Joe

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Former Member
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Occam's razor can still be applied here, although perhaps not in the strictest sense of the definition. It is still better to choose a solution to a problem with fewer assumptions.


Very well, let's apply Occam's Razor. Let's begin by taking your explanation B and expanding it to list all the assumptions and entities you so conveniently left out when you prepped the battlefield in your favor. Your version of B is:

B. Rigorous searching through all known chemical compounds through virtual screening discovers many potential candidates which bind to many different HIV proteins (protease, integrase, gp120, gp41, etc.)

Your B implies the following assumptions:

1. one of the chemical compounds we know of binds to HIV proteins
2. the software we use to model the binding will actually do the job
3. a myriad of unknown and uncontrolled home computers owned and operated by less than technically trained people (i.e. amateurs and wanabees) will not miss the compound we seek
4. the results are not being tampered with by malicious hackers on a relatively open and unsecure network with a million entry points
5. WCG's servers have not been compromised by hackers smarter than them
6. we are actually running the software mentioned in #2 above and not balancing ledgers for banks and businesses around the world

Ooops! Your B has 6 assumptions whereas my A has only 4. Are you sure we should apply Occam's Razor? (yes, I claim A to be mine, because you dumped it on me and also because it seems to be winning now smile )

I also submit that there may be thousands of planets supporting alien life. That would increase the chance of finding aliens.

We have very intelligent people working on this problem. We should not just sit on our couches twiddling our thumbs waiting for aliens to come and solve all of our problems.


But we are not sitting on couches waiting. We ARE crunching FAAH (presumably) and we ARE actively seeking aliens. Seems to me both methods have much the same chance for success if you apply Occam's Razor.


Yes I believe in aliens and the Drake equation supports your claim of thousands of planets. I do think that there could be alien civilizations out there with vastly superior technology. My point is that it's vastly more probable that we will find a cure for AIDS in the next 10-20 years rather than finding aliens that can cure it.

I'm sure I could triple the number of assumptions in your claim (and refute some of the ones you mentioned for mine) if I had the energy, but I'm not going to argue this any further (alien cure for AIDS & human cure for AIDS do not have the same chance for success, with or without Occam's razor - you can have the final word if you want - I'm done).
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 30, 2006 4:17:27 AM]
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Esoteric17,

Claiming you could win but just cannot be bothered is the coward's way of admitting defeat. There are far more gracious ways to say you're wrong and bow out.

I will give you this... I honestly don't know which approach has the best chance of giving us a cure for AIDS and I don't know of any way to decide which has the better chance. I really can't trust my intuition on such matters anymore because I know how often my intuition has been wrong in the past.

It has always been my belief that Occam's Razor tells us which hypothesis we should investigate first (because it is the more likely to prove correct) but it never rules out any hypothesis. Only testing can tell us which explanation is true. Quite often investigation shows the simpler explanation just isn't correct. Occam's Razor is a guide not a proof.

I believe Sgt. Joe has shed some light on this issue too. Crunching FAAH is applied research with a single goal whereas SETI is serendipitous. I have heard the crunching SETI does not only searches for intelligent signals from the heavens, it sort of "pre-crunches" the data in a way that sets it up nicely for investigations that look for phenomena other than aliens. I think I am not describing what I mean as well as others could. Maybe someone who has actually crunched a few SETI units could do a better job explaining the serendipity in SETI's work. Sgt. Joe, or anyone else, the soapbox is all yours if you have something further to add.
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Kim, please leave it alone.
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

David, expunge carl.h's points and account or petition court for a restraining order. Please.

Edit: added please.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Nov 30, 2006 7:16:49 AM]
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zombie67 [MM]
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Re: Mental Priority of projects

Whoa! I missed the posts before they were deleted. However, any legal action, if necessary, must not be taken behind closed doors. We are all peers. If you want to go down that path, then put all those posts back up for all to see.
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