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Movieman
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Heheh. A nice theory, but I spotted it without studying anything credit related (as did others). I noticed it when I gave HCC a once-over right after launch, and reported it here http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/privateviewthread?thread=16933 on Nov 2 (almost a month ago! this is why I gave this a low priority - nobody else even noticed the problem for another two weeks).
uplinger replied, but not optimistically:
1) This is part of the imaging processing and I'm not sure how much we can actually decrease the page faults.

Actually not true, unless we're talking different issues here.
I emailed WCG on this app 3 weeks ago after a weeks discussion at XS on this so although you may have spotted this early you weren't the only one.
One of the wonderfull side benefits of keeping track of the points is that it shows you trends.
When I see a machine that consistanty makes 25,000 points a day suddenly start making 19-20K a day it makes me investigate to see what is the reason. Being a hardware guy thats where I look first.
Is there a heat issue, a drive going bad,etc. Only after I look at these issues do I even consider the software. Now since software is not one of my strengths, thats when I come to you folks, report what I see and hope in your divine wisdom that you can fix the issue because I darn well can't.

Now I can understand that the project techs are tied up trying to get this working on Linux and I support that 100%. While they do so I'll work on FAAH and leave HCC to the guys with 1 and 2 core machines that aren't effected as much by this from what's been reported.


Now there is one more thing I think needs to be said.
The perceived view that some of us are here "just" for points.
I assure you that is not the case at least for me and the people I deal with daily at Xs. Most of my teammates and myself have had one of these nasty diseases touch us personally and that is what brought us here
Where we differ with you is in how we see competitions and their usefullness to any project. People love to compete and lets be blunt and honest with one another, there is nothing as boring as having a machine work without any yardstick to measure the work it does.
It is that measurement that pushes people to do more and some people get very caught up in it and want to do more still.
Add into that type of person someone with some skills with PC hardware and you get guys like at my team.
Anal? Yes. Type one alpha personalities, definately, but the main goal is to get the work done WHILE a fair and just awards process is in place.
It's really just that simple and we, meaning you and I, need to get past this "us and them" mentality to work together more effectively.
Both of our goals are the same and that is what should matter most.
Now in the name of peace I would suggest that any time you go to write the word credit, don't, as your comments alienate people and that doesn't help anyone here. I know in your heart your as devoted to this as I am, we just have different feelings on some of the sub categories.
Let's work together as friends and we can accomplish much more than as people who simply tolerate each other for the sake of the project.

To everyone here I would say that take a look at your machinery, and put it where it can do the most good.
When the techs are done with Linux issues, they will hopefully look at this and find a fix and then us folks with the 8 core machines can come back to HCC and pour some real power on it.
Thanks for reading..
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[Dec 1, 2007 6:47:42 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
zombie67 [MM]
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Heheh. A nice theory, but I spotted it without studying anything credit related (as did others). I noticed it when I gave HCC a once-over right after launch, and reported it here http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/privateviewthread?thread=16933 on Nov 2 (almost a month ago! this is why I gave this a low priority - nobody else even noticed the problem for another two weeks).


1) Something is wrong with that URL. "You are attempting to view something that you do not have sufficient rights to view."

2) Credits awarded vs. credits claimed is really the *only* tool we have to tell if there are problems, aside from tasks that error out.

3) I crunch 50+ BOINC projects at the same time, and when one project is such a small slice, variances in run times are easy to miss. Especially when there are multiple sub-projects. Frankly, the only reason I noticed the problem is because of the Christmas Race. A week ago, I re-tasked my machines 100% to WCG for the duration, at which point the problem became obvious, due to funky credits.


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[Dec 1, 2007 9:21:33 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Heheh. A nice theory, but I spotted it without studying anything credit related (as did others). I noticed it when I gave HCC a once-over right after launch, and reported it here http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/privateviewthread?thread=16933 on Nov 2 (almost a month ago! this is why I gave this a low priority - nobody else even noticed the problem for another two weeks).

uplinger replied, but not optimistically:
1) This is part of the imaging processing and I'm not sure how much we can actually decrease the page faults.

Unfortunately your link has restricted rights to view so we are unable to see, however if you knew about this on Nov 2, then why did you make an initial reply to this thread saying there isn't a problem, when there clearly is confused

It isn't a problem.

Credit is granted for work done, not the amount of time it took. WCG have some rather nifty feedback mechanisms in place to ensure that granted credit is equitable over different computers and projects, and also to make the accuracy improve over time.

So, pointing out a couple of results where your granted credit isn't close to your claimed credit or doesn't meet your expectations means absolutely nothing. Don't give it another thought.

HCC has only just restarted, so it will take a few days for the feedback to stabilise.


As Movieman has said, the credit issues highlighted the problem some time ago and was being discussed way before this thread existed - what gets folks a bit annoyed is your sometimes short, sniffy and dismissive responses to concerns, when a bit of diplomacy or at least an outward sign of some empathy to reassure us that our concerns are being taken seriously wouldn't go amiss which may avoid these kind of retorts between us.

Those that know me will also know personal credit/points are not important to me, otherwise I would not have crunched many thousands of results and millions of points outside of my account to others here - but I highlighted the post by 'downtowndan' regarding his getting 8.3 points for 7.5hrs work because no-one had responded to him either by a CA or a Tech and asked for some kind of response because I felt it was such an obvious anomaly and clearly unfair that it deserved some official comment - I certainly didn't do it because I am in some way hung up on credit and resent that kind of inference.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Dec 1, 2007 9:39:03 AM]
[Dec 1, 2007 9:28:10 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
KerSamson
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Hi everybody,
I am coming back from business trip and I enjoy to see that finally the collection of various observations (despite of the initial reason for them) help to identify a serious problem and to define at least a "workaround".
Already, yesterday evening I reallocated projects more accurately to the different type of hosts I operate (by the way, it will be useful if more device profiles could be define for boinc).
However I am a little bit surprised by some reactions concerning credits.
Being honest, we ALL are like children enjoying toys, games and finally expecting some recognition. There are no rational and logical reasons for spending time, electricity and for devoting hardware to tasks which do not give back any advantage or profits.
Because, like many children, we are in some ways idealist, we think that it is logical and natural to devote energy, time, money and hardware to projects which can help the humanity becoming better, living healthier, etc.
Because we are like such children, we enjoy receiving encouragement and being thanked. At WCG projects, credits are encouraging people to do more (or at least to stay working for WCG).
For my-self, I did not take care of the granted credits during many months. I've just devoted one, later two further hosts to WCG. After half a year, I discovered (for my big surprise) that I was finally in the top ten of my team. Some weeks later, I needed a new powerful workstation for my business. Because of WCG, I selected a very powerful one because it could be usable for crunching projects (otherwise, I would have bought something less powerful).
Leaving the psychology level, we have also to consider the operation of platform like WCG and of all sub-platforms provided by the WCG-members in a professional manner (my professional expertise is coming up).
As soon as we operate complex IT systems, performance monitoring is a necessity ! For Good Business Practice reasons, it is necessary to ensure that the delivered computation power is used efficiently. If some projects wast this power, it is inefficient for an environmental point of view (think of the global earth warming) and it is a disaster for projects which would be able to use the available power in a more efficient manner.
Today, a reasonable monitoring of the granted credits is the once way we have for observing the systems we devoted (fully or partially) to WCG projects.
I am providing consultancy for the regulated industry (i.e. pharmaceutical manufacturers, medical device manufacturers, ...). For this industry sector, performance monitoring is a REGULATORY requirement.
From a didactical point of view, participating to WCG is for me the opportunity to collect experience which I will surely re-use in my job. For this reason, I am managing my WCG sub-platform in the same way, I would operate GxP relevant systems (systems having to fulfill pharmaceutical regulation).
This approach was mainly the reason for me, for monitoring closely my main crunching machine, for wondering my-self regarding its behavior and results during the last two weeks and finally for initiating this thread.
Because the WCG projects are becoming more and more successful and larger, it is VITAL to take care of the resource usage.
From time to time, by reading posts in the forum, I have the feeling that some people do consider the available computation power like an unlimited resource ! It is a big mistake, because the available resource is small regarding the needs of the scientific community and because this resource is strongly related to the good will of volunteers. For being engaged in the operation of several not-for-profit organizations, I know that volunteers need encouragement, consideration and respect, otherwise they leave.
I hope that nobody will consider this post like a "teacher's lesson". It was not the purpose.
I am still available for supporting investigation (and spending time) for further investigation regarding the original issue. I am also ready for helping implementing some Good Practices for making WCG more efficient.
I wish everybody a great week-end.
Thank you for reading (and especially for having the patience to have read this long post) !
Cheers,
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[Dec 1, 2007 9:34:04 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Unfortunately your link has restricted rights to view so we are unable to see, however if you knew about this on Nov 2, then why did you make an initial reply to this thread saying there isn't a problem, when there clearly is confused

I didn't link the credit complaints to the pagefault issue immediately. The pagefault issue had already been reported in private, and also discussed in another public thread at length. It was hard to miss.

I said it wasn't a problem because the credit system was, in fact, working perfectly. The initial anomalies were well within the normal variance for unit runtimes. I'm afraid people have cried "wolf" so frequently over credit claims, that I wait until there is reliable evidence before taking them seriously.

So... a timeline: I spotted it on 2nd November. brent1023 spotted it on the 14th of November. BuHHunyx on the 23rd. Movieman was complaining of an unknown HCC problem on the 26th, but it was Sekerob who linked the issues, also on the 26th.

So now you know.

We all like credits. Please don't infer inference when no inference exists....

The link I gave was to a private forum. So, I dug through the archives and found this post on the 3rd: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread?thread=16902#135613 - I explained my methodology, my observations, and that I had shunted it over to the techs.

Credit also to tekennelly who first discovered the pagefault issue - not in HCC, but in HPF2. The problem is less pronounced there.
[Dec 1, 2007 10:12:20 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
zombie67 [MM]
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

This thread should have been renamed immediately after the first post, knowing what was already known.

As was said, the credit system worked. So the problem was obviously something else, something real.

So lets stop talking (and prioritizing) about this as if it has anything to do with credits.
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[Dec 1, 2007 10:30:36 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Thanks for clarifying things D - it is a little clearer now.

I understand that you often wish to wait until there is further evidence before, quote: "taking them seriously" but to the member concerned it can be somewhat annoying if they feel that you are being dismissive and are not being taken seriously at the outset by the tone of your replies, when to them it is probably important otherwise they wouldn't have taken the time to post.

I'm wondering if its possible for the replies to be perhaps more member friendly?
[Dec 1, 2007 10:45:45 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
KerSamson
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

This thread should have been renamed immediately after the first post, knowing what was already known.

The observation is OK !
But I don't know how I can rename the thread ! (can somebody help?)
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[Dec 1, 2007 10:56:58 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

If you look very closely at the little 'pencil&paper' image in the top left of the post header, you will also see a nearly invisible white 'edit' - click on that image and you will be able to edit.
[Dec 1, 2007 11:01:15 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
zombie67 [MM]
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USA
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

This thread should have been renamed immediately after the first post, knowing what was already known.

The observation is OK !
But I don't know how I can rename the thread ! (can somebody help?)

To be clear, I meant the admins should have renamed this thread, since they already knew the real cause of the problem, rather than let it perpetuate the image that it was about credits. Or at least said so out loud.
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[Dec 1, 2007 11:13:59 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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