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widdershins
Veteran Cruncher Scotland Joined: Apr 30, 2007 Post Count: 674 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The problem with solar panels is that you can't keep reducing the size yet increasing the performance indefinetly. There is an ultimate limit for solar power which is the amount of watts per square foot the sun can provide.
I think for solar/wind power to be sucessful the next challenge will be energy storage technology. People will still want power on becalmed nights. |
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stoic-druid
Cruncher UK Joined: Dec 1, 2005 Post Count: 10 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
There is an ultimate limit for solar power which is the amount of watts per square foot the sun can provide. I think for solar/wind power to be sucessful the next challenge will be energy storage technology. People will still want power on becalmed nights. Two very good points. - I would like to see this project produce some form of low cost multi pack coating to paint an entire roof, and or walls of house - which would mean the watt per metre factor would be less critical, 'upgrades' could be simply painted over the top. I guess we could be decades away from this technology, but in the meantime CEP a great step in the right direction. |
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Movieman
Veteran Cruncher Joined: Sep 9, 2006 Post Count: 1042 Status: Offline |
The issue I see with solar today and it's adoptance by the general public is all cost related.
----------------------------------------I did some research last year into the cost of installing solar panels at my home to generate app 3000KW/H/month to meet my normal 2700KW/H/Month usage. App $80.000.00 in just parts for a grid tied solar system Using my average monthly electric bill of $250.00 that is over 26 years for a payback and the parts don't last 26 years so there is never a payback at current prices. Keep in mind that the inverters needed last app 10 years and they are a big chunk of the cost also. Bring the costs down to 1/3rd of what they are now and the market will be born. I just don't see it happenning in a marketplace where greed rules and the benefits to mankind and the planet place a far second to that greed. If a 170w silcon panel retails for say $300.00 what is it's cost to manufacture? Do you honestly think that even if these well meaning people from Harvard came across a way to produce a panel that was competitive for a dime that it would ever see retail at an affordable price? I doubt it. The patents would be made, and the item produced and sold at a slightly lower retail than the current panels. Someone would get very wealthy but you and I would never see any benefit to the research done. I'm sorry but in this case I'll stick to medical research and at least hope the work I do can benefit someone down the line. ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
I don't think that's how capitalism works. The price will be as high as the market can bear, but if they can sell more by taking less profit per unit, they will.
Remember, too, that our research here is public domain. This means that nobody is likely to have a monopoly. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Let me try an analogy:
Nails cost a lot less to manufacture than screws. Screws can do everything nails can, and more. According to your theory, manufacturers could sell nails for nearly as much as screws and pocket the difference. Obviously, that's absurd. You never expected your theory to be applied this way. But I think the real world will respond similarly to cheap solar energy. Silicon will keep a space in the market for those times high efficiency is required, and low cost organic solar cells will still turn a decent profit while making economic sense from a power point of view. Just like screws and nails. I am not an economist. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Checked out that site, for $500 for 20 watts, that's $25/watt! I just turned down a $10M project to put PV panels on a bunch of our buildings at work. Instead I'm using that money to reroof these buildings, replace indoor plumbing with low flow fixtures and all lights with energy efficient T-8 fluorescent tubes with electronic ballasts. I did a cost benefit analysis and the cost out weighed any benefit. It would take 50+ years to recoup the costs and by that time, the pv module's warranty had expired. I used to think we should get into solar panels but not anymore. The cheapest way is to conserve energy. Now solar cell Manufacturing cost of Firstsolar in Malaysia has come down to $0.70/watt though now sold at $2/Watt peak. The Nanosolar cells are sold for $0.99/Watt but is sold out for next few months. These are of conversion efficiency of about 14% Chinese solar cells of crystalline silicon are now priced FOB China at $1.8 to $2/Watt today if bought in bulk These are of efficiency 16 to 18%. So price of solar cells has come down and the conversion efficiency are going up and will have pay back value of few years in places where the electricity prices are high and this electricity prices are going higher day by day with the Oil price going up again which is today at $60/Barrel. This could soon go further up to 75 to $100/Barrel. This is today's positiona on June 1st 2009 |
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nasher
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Dec 2, 2005 Post Count: 1423 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
well I like the concept of solar and am trying to find ways the avarage person can use them ..
----------------------------------------I can not find them online but at walmart in my area they have inexpensive $4 outdoor solar lights (with aa battery) these work well and even in the dead of winter in seatle washington they run for 5-6 hours a night sure they arnt the most efficent but they cost $4 and are easy to put out in your garden or walkway... nice cheap and no wireing.. and remember if people buy these solar lights and such (or other small solar items) it shows the stores that there is a demand for them and more variaty of them will come out. depending on style and size you can buy many small solar lights from $4-30 each and you can even use them indoors for most of them . and personaly whats the time it takes for money to return on something like that $4 is nothing and makes a nice conversation piece ![]() |
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sk..
Master Cruncher http://s17.rimg.info/ccb5d62bd3e856cc0d1df9b0ee2f7f6a.gif Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Post Count: 2324 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The idea of using solar panels with small devices appeals a lot to me. The first example I remember is the solar calculator, capable of running on indoor daylight. It was in common use as far back as the early 1980’s. Recently I have seen lots of roadside signs use solar panels – a lot easier than tying into the grid!
Items such as the solar powered garden light (charges a battery during the day and powers light in the evenings and early mornings), are quite decorative as well as being functional. I have seen an increase in such items. I hope they help drive the market, manufacturing and development and ultimately reduce costs to the public. Although I don’t have a garden to put a light in, I do use a solar charger to charge batteries. These batteries power several lamps, torches, remote controls, clocks, radio-headphones, mp3 player, radio, wireless keyboard & mouse. A Solio allows me to charge a mobile phone, or run a fan off. These ideas are just the same as solar panels, but on a much smaller scale. Although I would like to have a solar panel capable of charging a computer or TV, there is a lot to consider even at this scale. Where to put it? Panel size, Power production, regulator, battery and of course the cost. There needs to be a financially ineffective to take on a project like this. If any part is priced too high it’s a non starter. If it will take you 5 years to recoup the purchase costs it’s not worth the bother, unless you live somewhere that has a poor mains supply. For anyone looking to try to power their home with panels, it’s a major task. Price is the primary factor. Solar panels need to be cheap, as do the other components and the installation price. A reasonable price per Watt is about £3 ($5), a few panels are slightly more competitive than this. Avoid anything over £5 ($8) per Watt – it’s a rip off! I would expect prices to drop to $1/per Watt over the next 3 or 4 years, so don’t over invest now. When you see how small a solar panel can be, with garden lights, it makes you wonder how many other small and medium sized devices could be adapted to use solar power. |
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sk..
Master Cruncher http://s17.rimg.info/ccb5d62bd3e856cc0d1df9b0ee2f7f6a.gif Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Post Count: 2324 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
incentive (ineffective = spell check effort).
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nasher
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Dec 2, 2005 Post Count: 1423 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
personaly my goal is to find ways to use what is out there to better my life
----------------------------------------small solar garden lights work well for me.. again i buy the cheep ones at 4$ each (from walmart) and so far in bremerton wa winter not much light up here and long nights during the winter, the solar lights work about 7-10 hours from the little light they get during the day even on cloudy or rainy days I get at least 5 hours at night of light from these 4$ lights... as for Movieman 's comment about the cost for a full system.. most people i know who use solar also use a grid tie so they dont need batteries saves alot of most systems and also means you dont need to worry about the fact that you might have only made 80% of the power you used for that day another from most my friends who look to solar power the bigest thing i can say is conservation.. most times you wont be able to live the "city slicker" lifestyle if you want to be 100% solar with todays prices... another sugestion if you find little ways to cut your electricity bill you can take the money you dont spend on power to work towards a more eco friendly solution... ![]() |
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