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erik.schiegg
Cruncher Joined: Feb 15, 2007 Post Count: 1 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Shure, solar panels are very known, but they are an expensive principle.
To make solar panels cheaper, light concentrators as parabol rinn mirrors or fresnel lenses are used to increase the efficiency and lower the per watt cost. A combination with heating liquids as water or oils to produce with a watt or sterling engine electricity or to distillate water lower the cost per watt, but require a planned enviroment of several principles, e.g. solar agriculture, with produced it's own sweetwater for plants and animals or for reforestation programms that lack only water. I wonder what the community grid would spit out, if such elements of energy production in combination with sweetwater production or agriculture are used like in the life programm, which produced lifeforms very similar to real-ones in a virtual darwin-like selection pressure. Miniaturisation in order to develop a modular, cheaper system that can be mounted on sun side of a building woud be an interesting field of research, too. But what I really wanna know is, what the grid would say to a testatika-like machine or a magnetic generator using the earths magnet field like a watermill...what it would say to the electro-magnetic tesla-stuff. I hope I can contribute to better formulating simulations with my little brainstorming and I hope that the results are spread out louldy. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
erik.schiegg, watch this: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/newsletter/video/viewVodcast4.do
The whole goal of The Clean Energy Project is to develop cheap, plastic solar cells, ones that can be incorporated into many places where expensive silicon solar cells can't be used. |
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sk..
Master Cruncher http://s17.rimg.info/ccb5d62bd3e856cc0d1df9b0ee2f7f6a.gif Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Post Count: 2324 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
erik.schiegg, The whole goal of The Clean Energy Project is to develop cheap, plastic solar cells Although the Clean Energy Project is trying to produce cheap plastic energy producing devices to capture solar energy, people need to remember that items that are expensive to build come down in price with mass production and design refinements. I would not be overly worried about trying to make solar panels as cheap as possible! The bottom line is that we live in a Capital driven world, not a Utopian paradise. Unless it is a marketable product, it will never sell. If you managed to make cheap solar panels for say £1, they could not sell in our economic society simply because they would be too cheap. The retailers would not make a profit, so they are not going to even try to sell them. Transportation costs would be more than the item can sell for, so they would not even ship. There also needs to be competition in this area! Too expensive and they will not sell in sufficient quantities to make any environmental difference – the present situation. So the CEP needs to aim at being cheaper than existing technologies but not dirt cheap. Sufficent to fuel the industry as well as homes, factories and offcies. Also, there is no sense in trying to make Panels that last for ever! In 3-8 years new panel technologies will be more economical and cost effective, assuming there is competition, so the old ones will end up in the plastics bin any way. |
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noderaser
Senior Cruncher United States Joined: Jun 6, 2006 Post Count: 297 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The bottom line is that we live in a Capital driven world, not a Utopian paradise. Unless it is a marketable product, it will never sell. If you managed to make cheap solar panels for say £1, they could not sell in our economic society simply because they would be too cheap. The retailers would not make a profit, so they are not going to even try to sell them. Transportation costs would be more than the item can sell for, so they would not even ship. Price is a marketable attribute. Also, they would never be "too cheap"; markup from production and wholesale costs covers things like transportation, marketing, warehousing, a profit margin, etc. |
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sk..
Master Cruncher http://s17.rimg.info/ccb5d62bd3e856cc0d1df9b0ee2f7f6a.gif Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Post Count: 2324 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
OK, I was being simplistic, but the point stands. If an item costs £2 to get to the shops, but it is large or bulky and the mark-up applied by the shop is 30% then the shop can only make 60p per item. Given retail overheads (Rent, staff pay, insurance, electric etc) this would probably not be sufficient to attract many retailers to sell the product. So the sales would be limited to out of town warehouses and bulk orders. This means it would be more difficult to get the items. So demand would actually fall with price. If retailers raised their overhead to make it worthwhile selling, they might not have a sufficient turnover rate to sustain continued sales. From a retailer’s point of view, as long as an item is sitting on a shelf it is taking up room and costing the retailer.
If this project managed to produce a viable product for say, under £5 but with sufficient scope for mark-up and profitability to make it sell, the result could mean an end to other manufacturing and designs, which are relatively expensive. In the long run continued research and development of today’s expensive products could well result in a superior product design. But this would be lost due to market saturation of the cheap product. The cheap product could actually become a problem in our throw-away society. Another factor to consider is product growth rate. You can’t suddenly produce and sell millions of items. Product manufacturing and sales rates have to grow according to the rate the sector can expand. It would be folly to think that cheap plastic solar energy capture is necessarily going to be a successful product. All too often scientific research does not result in an end product. Scientists have a knack of studying things to death. I suspect that successful sales of cheap plastic solar devices may have a limited time frame, given recent solar developments (Carbon tubes). Subsequently the product may be limited to niche environments. So, it is important to get the product out there now, even if it is not presently very cheap. The more time you spend developing a product the less time you have to manufacture and sell it, before a better product comes along. Industry needs time to build itself around a new product but can develop towards new products from existing ones a lot faster than starting afresh. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
skgiven, given that supermarkets sell things for mere pennies, your argument clearly has a major flaw. The market will determine the price.
Remember that organic solar cells will be competing with silicon solar cells, which currently are very expensive. This means that organic solar cells can sustain a large markup to make them profitable - and the consumer will still get a better deal. I think you are confusing technologies still in the lab stage (nanotubes) with commercially available technology. Organic solar cells are already cheap. What they aren't is efficient. To be competitive, they must be more efficient, hence this project. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
The CSIRO in Australia is currently researching cheap solar cells using plastic! Australia has the market share in plastic notes and currency and its going to turn its huge printing power towards the production of solar cells.
This is one solution but its great to have lots more. Keep up the good work Harvard! |
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sk..
Master Cruncher http://s17.rimg.info/ccb5d62bd3e856cc0d1df9b0ee2f7f6a.gif Joined: Mar 22, 2007 Post Count: 2324 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
supermarkets sell things for mere pennies, your argument clearly has a major flaw. The Supermarkets may sell some things for mere pennies, but they dont sell Giant Sheets of Plastic for pennies! I dont think they are going to be any time soon either! Bread, Milk, Eggs, Potatoes, Beans... oh, and a giant roll of plastic. Yeah, right! Nanotubes may still be in the lab, but plastic solar panels are not exactly on every shop-shelf, are they? Unless a product is out there, it cant sell. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Hence this project.
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Cling wrap, plastic bags- that you get for free when you put your fruit in it or when you go to the checkout the list goes on. Theres a huge resorce of plastic that people throw out everyday thats waiting to be utilised. I dont think its for pennies I think its for free.
check this out and then have your say. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2550612.htm Hmm giant roll of plastic may be the cling wrap or the plastic garbage bags maybe? |
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