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KerSamson
Master Cruncher
Switzerland
Joined: Jan 29, 2007
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[RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

Hi everybody,
I am happy that the HCC project experiences significant progress. But I wish to share some concerns regarding the extreme variation of granted points by this project. Even, if crunching is "just for fun", I would like to understand how it is possible that the same host receives 58.2 points after 15.80 hours (claimed 221.9) or 89.2 points after 16.02 hours (claimed 208.9) and later 154.2 points after 17.75 hours (claimed 154.2).
The variation is very large and does not reflect in any way the number of points per hour granted by other projects (e.g HPF2).
Since the concerned host is my fastest cruncher (2x Xeon Quadcore, 2.33 GHz), I am disappointed because around 12 WUs have been significantly "under granted" by the same project. It comes after several failed WUs which consumed around 50 hours each during the last 6 weeks.
By the way, it looks like that WUs have more problem with Xeon processors than with processors other types.
I hope this problems can be corrected very soon.

Have a great week,
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by KerSamson at Dec 1, 2007 8:41:05 PM]
[Nov 25, 2007 10:08:56 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

It isn't a problem.

Credit is granted for work done, not the amount of time it took. WCG have some rather nifty feedback mechanisms in place to ensure that granted credit is equitable over different computers and projects, and also to make the accuracy improve over time.

So, pointing out a couple of results where your granted credit isn't close to your claimed credit or doesn't meet your expectations means absolutely nothing. Don't give it another thought.

HCC has only just restarted, so it will take a few days for the feedback to stabilise.
[Nov 25, 2007 10:19:43 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
KerSamson
Master Cruncher
Switzerland
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Thank you for your answer, I only did announce this concern because around 12 WUs with an average computing time of 15 hours each are affected. In comparison, DDDT grantes in average 16 points per hour with a 10% variation between claimed and granted points.
In the case of HCC, the variation is between 200% and 450%. This situtation is not really fitting with other projects results.
Good night
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[Nov 25, 2007 10:33:54 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
zombie67 [MM]
Senior Cruncher
USA
Joined: May 26, 2006
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

I notice on my 8-way mac (dual Xeon 5365) that the HCC WUs run very slowly, not even using 100% of each of the CPUs. Not sure what the problem is, but maybe it is somehow related to machines with many cores. There is still plenty of RAM left unused.

Also, they show running under "system" load, not "nice" load, which is what all the other sub-projects (and other projects) show as. This is on all my macs, not just the 8-way.

In any case, I have turned off getting any more HCC work until this gets resolved.
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[Nov 26, 2007 12:02:35 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Movieman
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

It isn't a problem.

Credit is granted for work done, not the amount of time it took. WCG have some rather nifty feedback mechanisms in place to ensure that granted credit is equitable over different computers and projects, and also to make the accuracy improve over time.

So, pointing out a couple of results where your granted credit isn't close to your claimed credit or doesn't meet your expectations means absolutely nothing. Don't give it another thought.

HCC has only just restarted, so it will take a few days for the feedback to stabilise.

Yes, it is a problem. On machines with more than 4 cores there is a definate issue. I've been looking at this closely for weeks now and there is a definate pattern that just effects these machines.
I have 2-8 core clovertown machines here and one Q6600.
The clovers run at over 3000mhz and the Q6600 runs at 3600.
The Q6600 always gets what it claims or close. The clovers do not.
One clover is on win2K3 64 bit running Boinc 5.10.20 64 bit and the other clover is on win2K3 32 bit running boinc 5.10.20 32 bit.
The Q6600 is on winXP pro 32 bit.
You have, or should have, the ability to look at my account.
See for yourself the claimed vs granted on these machines.
The clover on win2K3 64bit is in meshmesh's name but here at my home.
Look at the claimed vs granted on that machine since the HCC project started. It went down the toilet and fast.
That machine does absolutely nothing, I repeat, nothing but WCG and with 2 exceptions since last December runs 24/7.It is dead stable and the machines average should be pretty static but it is not.
There is an unidentified problem inside the HCC WU regarding these machines.
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[Nov 26, 2007 1:37:25 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Not quite unidentified: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread?thread=17119

It does not seem to effect any of my machines including a Q6600 with 2gbRam, fixed VM and Vista HP 32bit. Claims are near dead on with partner in quorum.

Sample

X0000039760062200409281037_ 1-- Valid 11/21/2007 23:15:51 11/23/2007 19:51:30 4.08 62.9 / 65.9

Added, I do suspect in part the 64bit client on 64 bit os producing an excessive (integer) benchmark. Ady reported 100% increase, with a very similar flop value as 32 bit. Integer does little and we still crunch in 32 bit regardless.

The benchmark is indiscriminanant. It simply adds up the whet/dhrystone and divides it by about 480 to come to an hourly claim, so they are bound to be on the high side due the overrated integer component.

And for the LoL part, i'll be going back to WXPro once SP3 is out on the Q6600. Just left it there to get hands-on experience and see what's real and what can be elimenated thru configuration. SP3 per tests 10% faster as under SP2 and from thereon 2x faster than Vista, SP1 RC1.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Sekerob at Nov 26, 2007 10:08:22 AM]
[Nov 26, 2007 8:57:09 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
KerSamson
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Switzerland
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Hello,
the posted answers are interesting because they meet my own observation. The impacted host is a Dual Xeon Quadcore running W-XP Pro 64 with 4 GB RAM. The system is not overclocked.
Based on the last answers, I checked CPU load and memory usage.
- As expected, the CPU load is at 95%.
- Surprinsingly, the memory usage is only 800 MB with 8 crunching cores (I think that it is probably very low).
If, from time to time, I take a look on my crunching systems, it is not especially for some competition regarding granted points but for good practice regarding performance monitoring. I assume that the granted points reflect activity and performance of a specific system for a specific project.
I consider a variation less than 25% between claimed and granted points as acceptable (because the effective point allocation is not an "exact science"). Anyway, variations over 25% - or in my specific case until 450% - are, IMHO, the signal that something is going wrong. Only communication and dialog can help to identify problems and finally to solve them.
Based on the other made observations, I will activated HCC on single and dual core hosts and deactivated this specific project for the Xeon host and privileged DDDT, HPF2, and AfricanClimate.
If some particular issues should be closer investigated, please let me know in order for me to provide more accurate and consistent feedback.
Have a great week,
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[Nov 26, 2007 10:04:39 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Movieman
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Not quite unidentified: http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread?thread=17119

It does not seem to effect any of my machines including a Q6600 with 2gbRam, fixed VM and Vista HP 32bit. Claims are near dead on with partner in quorum.

Sample

X0000039760062200409281037_ 1-- Valid 11/21/2007 23:15:51 11/23/2007 19:51:30 4.08 62.9 / 65.9

Added, I do suspect in part the 64bit client on 64 bit os producing an excessive (integer) benchmark. Ady reported 100% increase, with a very similar flop value as 32 bit. Integer does little and we still crunch in 32 bit regardless.

The benchmark is indiscriminanant. It simply adds up the whet/dhrystone and divides it by about 480 to come to an hourly claim, so they are bound to be on the high side due the overrated integer component.

And for the LoL part, i'll be going back to WXPro once SP3 is out on the Q6600. Just left it there to get hands-on experience and see what's real and what can be elimenated thru configuration. SP3 per tests 10% faster as under SP2 and from thereon 2x faster than Vista, SP1 RC1.

Hi Sek:
I think you haven't seen this yourself as your machine is a quadcore and this issue only appears to be effecting the machines with 8 core's.
As to the 64 bit OS, I do agree that they claim a higher benchmark while the app is 32 bit so realistically they can't be doing the work any faster than with a 32 bit OS.
This is the time to bring up another point thats been made before:
64 bit WU's.
If ever the time was right to do this it is now.
There are so many machines out there that are capable of doing 64 bit OS and the greater(faster) amount of work possible that it really seems a shame to me that this isn't being taken advantage of.
Yes, I know the arguments against doing it.
Two different apps for the same thing but think on what this could do for the projects.
I know that just from Xs we could bring close to 1000 machines to 64 bit in a week if the opportunity is there.
I see time as lives saved in the long run and thats why I will push for 64 bit work units. It isn't a points thing with me but rather plain logic tells me that this is the smart way to go.
As always, a pleasure to speak with you.
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[Nov 26, 2007 8:38:28 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
KerSamson
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Switzerland
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Hi,
I confirm my observation:
- with 8 cores crunching for HCC on W-XP Pro 64: around 800 MB RAM used
- with 3 cores crunching for HCC and 5 cores for others projects (DDDT, HPF2) on the same system: 1.55 GB RAM used.
I conclude that HCC should have a memory allocation failure. It will also probably explain why such WUs take so long for a poor result (only few granted points).
Within some days (since I selected HCC), the average earning drop down from around 2800 points daily to less than 2300 points, although this host is only crunching at this time.
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[Nov 27, 2007 2:32:25 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
zombie67 [MM]
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USA
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Something that might be clouding the points part of this is the awarding method. The quorum is 2, and the points awarded seem to be according to the amount claimed by the first return. Sometimes credits awarded appear to be right in line with claimed, and other times way over or under. If a 8-way claims first, and the other is a non-8-way, the second claiming machine gets a huge credit jump. OTOH, if the first claim is a non-8-way, the 8-way gets a huge credit cut. Regardless, the 8-ways are taking way too long, and claiming an accordingly large amount, even though they did the work very slowly, compared to much slower machines.
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[Nov 27, 2007 8:23:31 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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