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courine
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confused Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

What day is it today?
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[Jan 19, 2008 7:34:53 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

east or west of the international date line?
[Jan 19, 2008 8:48:55 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
twilyth
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Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

The techs are aware of this problem (and several others) but I won't start nagging them until after New Year's Day. devilish

Lawrence


The bolded part is what Courine meant - assuming you weren't being sarcastic.

Anyway, I'd written HCC off for the foreseeable future since it seemed like fixing this problem was about as high on the to do list as upgrading the forum software. However from the stats it doesn't seem that HCC is suffering so maybe there's no point in worrying about it.
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[Jan 20, 2008 12:30:28 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

Hey Ya twilyth, courine, Ker et al...
I do live near Vallejo, twylith!!!!!
Heh Heh Heh laughing laughing laughing Okay, back on point for me!
Anyhow, what about those HCC work units.
!. They are reminiscent of the FAaH monster work units. My e-abacus average time to completion is 17hours for a full unit, and since it is on 24/7, now running at 80%, mine completes these as if it is just an extra piece of baggage on a treadmill. Yawn!
2. My system uses the older AMD single core Duron CPU.
3. My board is capable of handling an Athlon, no prob. It is now running PC 3200 DDR SDRAM at 512 MB.
4. BUT...
After all I have read, and heard, I am loathe to Dual core my system. Why?
Any software glitch in the projects our systems crunch is a problem. Like a lug nut loose in the car's hubcap, ya know! But on a dual core based system, any quark sized quirk will cause greater difficulty, and slowdown of systems. Why? The chips are elegant, and flawless. There can be no room for error, either in their construction or in their output. Because they handle so much more, well, call it throughput, than any predecessors, they have inherently less toleration for endless loops, or non-design symmetry flaws that find there way into code. If you put questionable fuel into a Boeing 777, and expect that the Rolls Royce turbofans with their Chip based engine control systems will not choke and cough when the fuel gets to minimums, ask some folks in London about that!!!
I like the analogy. See, alot of us have some very elegant, expensive machines ( not me! ). And have some very snobbish, downright puritanical ideas about their abilities ( include me! ). And we must question authority! Because we represent the very best of purposes, and we are the benchmarks which the software must match up to. Not the other way around. I don't think any of us would be trying to help the world in the way we do in this project if we were anything else.
Solutions?
1. Put HCC through a micoscope. Every line, every digit, every 0 and 1.
2. Encourage more study, and effort, into models for multi core processor applications. And perhaps a revamping of the holy grail, code.
And this is something everyone should be encouraged to get involved in, not just the hard working folks at WCG. they have enough on their plates rose good luck
[Jan 20, 2008 3:01:06 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
twilyth
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Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

Hey Ya twilyth, courine, Ker et al...
I do live near Vallejo, twylith!!!!!

It took me a while to get that then I remembered my sig. If you go to the danasoft.com site, you'll see I don't actually know where you are - it's just a look up that gets done when your browser requests the graphic. Then the graphic is customized for you and sent to your browser. Email me if that's not clear.
After all I have read, and heard, I am loathe to Dual core my system.

At this point it's not clear that the problem is exclusive to multi cores. Some people have seen it with single core machines too. But you're right about new chips being more efficient. They tend to have longer "pipelines" - the stages the cpu goes through to fetch, decode and execute an instruction. So "bubbles" in the pipeline can slow you down more - in relative terms - than they might on an older architecture.
1. Put HCC through a microscope. Every line, every digit, every 0 and 1.
2. Encourage more study, and effort, into models for multi core processor applications. And perhaps a revamping of the holy grail, code.

I won't say that WCG is operated on a shoestring, but as we are constantly reminded, they're overworked and understaffed. That's part of the reason a lot of people would like to see WCG accept donations - so they could advertise, have better tech support, etc.
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[Jan 20, 2008 3:21:19 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

Hey!
So, that's a "real time" street sign. I'll turn 51 tomorrow, and man this world never ceases to surprise me!
Yeah, I like the ' pipeline descrip '. My intro into the basics of chips was when I worked for a local business coffee service. One of our clients was called Silicon Spice. It was in Santa Clara. When I walked in to service the account, I didn't find a spice and tobacco shop. I had walked smack into one of the most advanced think tanks for semiconductor research. Picked up little tidbits here and there, as long as I left extra French and Italian Roast Coffee beans! Sometimes the white boards weren't erased in the room where the coffee computer was. It was 1999-2000, and the duals were right up there, in red, black, green, blue and yellow marker designs! We never said a word, but we were all secret geeks in the coffee business!!! It took some of us just a couple of months to figure out. Of course, Xeons were already established, and the technology wasn't new. Just the size, and capabilities of these newer designs. It was astonishing! cool
[Jan 20, 2008 3:51:22 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
courine
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applause Re: [RENAMED] Some concerns regarding the HCC project (page fault and poor performance, in particular (but not only) by multi-core hosts; #cores>2)

Dear 7,

I use to work for places like that. Just it was the it was back when the Internet was a pipe dream.

I'm 15.2 degrees into aquarius myself. And even though now seen as a tiger, this makes me something of a groundhog. But can you blame me for being a watchdog.

Happy Birthday.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by courine at Jan 21, 2008 9:38:55 AM]
[Jan 20, 2008 7:37:28 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
kh6dc@arrl.net
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Why is the claimed points such a big deal. From all the concerns, it seems like you're just chasing points/ranking and forgot about what this is all about and the good the results will do. Think about it.
[Jan 22, 2008 9:49:35 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
twilyth
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Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

Points are important because

1. They are a measure of efficiency. The more points per hour that you average, the more efficient your computer. But with HCC, even extremely fast computers are awarded many fewer points than expected - not always, but a significant amount of the time. This implies that these machines are not being used efficiently. Therefore, it is only logical to restrict affected machines to projects where their computing power is used efficiently.

2. For many of us, the competitive aspect is just as important as the work. On XtremeSystems team, many of our members spend thousands, and in some cases tens of thousands of dollars, buying the latest hardware so we can stay competitive. There is no point in doing that if superior computing power is not going to be rewarded.
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[Jan 22, 2008 11:25:28 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
courine
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applause Re: Some concerns regarding the granted points

This is not about points or ranking. A nice ploy, but its far from the truth. Let me ask this, "If you found out that, for example this project, was 20% inefficient, would you still crunch it?" You could say, "The work needs to get done!" The I say, "To have code that blocks so many high end machines from the fight. How can I be a problem saying there is one.?"

The fact that I have had to set a low end limit on this at all, screams a problem. The fact that I am watchdogging screams another. The problem I find worse is if I question this on any issue, I'm a problem. A perfect tactical maneuver to rid this place of tigers. Then use the sheep to clean up the mess, as that is all that is left. Which points to another problem. Not the sheep, but the mechanism.

What happens if you try to kill a tiger and are not completely successful? You send me another watchdog. Why do you have watchdogs? Because this place need not be a stain on it's own future.

Woof Woof.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by courine at Jan 22, 2008 2:36:26 PM]
[Jan 22, 2008 1:05:47 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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