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hchc
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete


Time should not matter when calculating Percentage completion.

We will have to agree to disagree - and this is my last post...
When building a house - when would most people consider it 50% complete i.e.half way there? by *time* - or the number of items used in its construction, man hours worked or...

I don't believe house construction to be analogous to distributed computing. In other words, the construction of a house can be seen linearly, since it's not like over time more construction resources get added to the project.

But with distributed computing, computing power increases exponentially (not linearly), so we need a solid frame of reference when calculating percent complete.

Look at how Distributed.net's RC5-72 project does their calculations.

1. Their Percent complete is merely [Work units completed] / [Total Work units in project] * 100%. It's simple. Beautiful.

2. Their ETA calculations are more complicated, naturally, and are based on the rate of work unit completion based off daily, weekly, monthly rates.

My overarching point is to follow the KISS principle. The most simplistic, non-confusing way to calculate percent complete is to not introduce a time variable into the equation and simply go off [work units completed] / [total work] * 100%.

So my question to knreed was simply wanting to know how World Community Grid calculates Percent Complete. knreed did a good job explaining how ETA is calculated and can vary based on surges, for example. That's great. My confusion is solely wanting to know how WCG calculates percent complete. I want to know if the 91% figure has the possibility of decreasing or if I should trust it as accurate. I would be truly grateful for a detailed answer which explains the math involved.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by hchc at Sep 17, 2018 4:13:41 AM]
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Speedy51
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

Speedy51 said:
hchc please refer to Knreed post in https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg...ad,40597_offset,20#593628 for the answer to why the progress has jumped so much on the research page

I don't believe you're following the conversation. The thread you linked simply linked back to this thread, specifically knreed's explanation.

And if you read this thread, I replied to knreed's post where I asked:

hchc said:
@knreed, thanks for the reply, but I still have a question.

Your post explains how the Estimated Completion Date is calculated and why it can move up much faster in these "surge" periods.

But what I'm still confused with is how the Percentage Complete is calculated and why it can suddenly jump higher or lower. That part doesn't make sense to me.

Percentage Complete should simply be [amount of work completed] / [amount of total work] * 100%

so it shouldn't ever go down, only up.


So Speedy51, I've read the explanations, and I had follow-up questions specifically on how Percentage complete is calculated, not how ETA is calculated.

My confusion isn't related to ETA, it's simply asking if the 91% complete number is in fact accurate, one shouldn't expect it to decrease. In other words, 91% is accurate.

Hope you get the answer you are looking for
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

This topic has been discussed at length over the years and it seems to be the consensus that the research page isn't accurate. The WCG team even mentioned in one of the many previous posts that they intended to redo the page after the hardware upgrade which was consuming most of their time. Evidently, other things have preempted that those plans too (like getting a new climate project ready for production). It seems we want to continue to beat the same old dead horses.
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knreed
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

TLDR summary: These are estimates. Estimates always have error in them. The technique we use is reasonable given the data available to us but it will make mistakes from time to time.

Longer version:

There is a continuing assumption that we know how much work a given project is going to have at the start of the project. That is a BAD ASSUMPTION. We do not know how long each project will be. At the start of a project the researchers have a proposed scope that they want to run. This usually means that have a number of data-sets in mind at the start of the project that they want to run through the grid. As the project runs and the researchers look at the data they get back, they usually have some new ideas and add some new data-sets or remove others. Thus the total number of data-sets run usually winds up being different, sometimes significantly so, then what was expected at the start of the project.

Each of these data-sets usually gets converted into some number of batches. Each of those batches winds up having an unknown number of workunits. The reason that it is unknown is that the run-time length of the work in a batch is often dependent on the particular data being run. We break those batches up into a larger or smaller number of workunits based on how "tough" that particular data is to run. We are also not usually able to asses how tough a "batch" is until we have downloaded it onto our servers to prepare for running on the grid.

Between these two factors, it is very hard to asses the total amount of work that will be run for a given project. Thus we have an estimate based on the information that we have available.

In addition, the rate that we are working through a project depends on a number of factors. How many users are currently participating? How many projects do we have currently running? Does a team, organization or corporate partner decide to focus their resources on a specific research project instead of everything that we are currently running? Each of these items changes the rate at which work is being run for a particular project. As a result, we take a recent average of the pace and use that as an estimate.

This means that the % complete for a project is:

estimate of recent work done for the project/current estimate of work remaining for the project

Since both of those change and are estimates with a some uncertainty in each measurement, the end result is going to vary and change.

We do want to change how we present the estimate. Using a number like 91% provide a false precision in the estimate which is why It think that there is often confusion and frustration about the number. It would be more accurate and clear for us to provide a metric/visualization that simply said one of the following:
- The project just started
- The project is early in its life-cycle
- The project is in the middle of its life-cycle
- The project is late in its life-cycle
- The project is ending soon (within 2 months)

That is all the precision that we can reasonably provide and I think it would be good for us to make a change so that the various webpages reflect that.

As for when we will get to this update. There always seems to be about 100 things that really really need to get done so I don't want to estimate when a change like this might be made.
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Mumak
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

Thanks for the detailed background and explanation Kevin.
I think it would be a shame to report just those few stage levels instead of some percentage.
I (personally) would prefer a simple indicator based on actual known number of batches processed/expected, without taking the actual processing rate into account. Such indicator would only increase and if we see a decrease, we know that more batches have been added. What do you think about this, would this be acceptable from your side?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Mumak at Sep 17, 2018 5:35:27 PM]
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Sgt.Joe
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

Thank you Kevin for your detailed explanation. I too , like Mumak think just having the levels you mentioned would be a shame. I understand that the current process is rife with multiplying uncertainties at all the various levels. However, I believe that when you (meaning the IBM team) vet a project, one of the items always considered is the estimated scope of the project. That scope may be expressed in potential work units, possibly in time or maybe in terms of how much information can be processed until the money runs out. I understand the potential scope is riddled with uncertainty, both by the scientists and your team, but it would still be somewhat helpful and informative if we (the crunchers) had a rough idea of the size and scope of the project(s). Furthermore it would also be nice to be informed if the scope of the project changes significantly. Just a few sentences such as: The scientists added some work and doubled the size of their project. Or: The existing work done to this point has shown little benefit and the scientists are abandoning this approach to pursue more promising leads at a future date thus cutting this project short of its intended run.
I do agree the percentage approach lends a degree of precision which is not justified. Perhaps the percentages could be expressed as a range i.e 10% to 20% completed using a decile approach.
Keep up the good work.
Cheers
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

OK, so here´s my 2p´th:

  • I prefer the numbers.
  • I don´t like big jumps without an explanation.

If the numbers are calculated automagically, would it not be possible for the code to recognise a wild swing and perhaps flag it to the techs as out-of-line, rather than simply surprising everyone?

I recognise that the progress displays are also read by people who neither read nor post in the forums, but I find it hard to believe that simple progress stages would be seen as an improvement over numbers by those participants. And given that our minority even go so far as to follow Klik´s attempts to improve on WCG´s own numbers, I´m pretty sure that the majority here would prefer numbers too. Just do something to soften the wild swings, or explain them as soon as they occur. I think most of us recognise that they´re only estimates and that situations change, it´s just that we´d like to be told more about what´s happening.
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hchc
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

Murnak said:
Thanks for the detailed background and explanation Kevin.
I think it would be a shame to report just those few stage levels instead of some percentage.
I (personally) would prefer a simple indicator based on actual known number of batches processed/expected, without taking the actual processing rate into account. Such indicator would only increase and if we see a decrease, we know that more batches have been added. What do you think about this, would this be acceptable from your side?

^ This, to a tee. This is exactly the KISS calculation that should be done that doesn't need to unnecessarily introduce a time or rate variable into the percent complete calculation. Simply [# of batches or work units processed] / [# of known batches or work units total] * 100%. If we see the number go down, it's because the denominator increased (i.e., more work or batches were added to the project).

I believe it muddies the waters to introduce rate or time variables into a percent complete calculation. Just keep it simple.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by hchc at Sep 18, 2018 8:11:10 AM]
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KLiK
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

Thanks for the detailed background and explanation Kevin.
I think it would be a shame to report just those few stage levels instead of some percentage.
I (personally) would prefer a simple indicator based on actual known number of batches processed/expected, without taking the actual processing rate into account. Such indicator would only increase and if we see a decrease, we know that more batches have been added. What do you think about this, would this be acceptable from your side?

But it would give you the same discrepancy!
Why?

Even if you could have the total amount of batches (which you don't, as you only got data-sets which give you, quote, "some number of batches" which will give you, quote "unknown number of workunits"), it would still give you the the same percentage of the project itself of completion as they days.

Problem remains "why WCG ECD (green row) is equal to my calculated ECD (blue row), while my calculated percentages are different when the days run of the project itself are compared"? I've spoken earlier about that to WCG, how WCG is also doing some "last month or least week" only calculations (probably) & that it gives WCG the wrong percentage of completion of the project itself - no luck there.

Notice that WCG ECD is equal to my calculated ECD, check here: https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewpostinthread?post=593830

Also, there must me something happening, as the SCC last year was producing about 100.000 batches per day, while now (after 20.08.) SCC is doing around 200.000 batches per day: https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/stat/viewP....do?numRecordsPerPage=365
So that is also an effect to take into consideration that SCC is going to end sooner than expected! Has the weight of the project itself changed? Or has there been many people going into SCC research - that info is upon WCG side to disclose.

Anyway, there are still to be done & keep on crunching. cool
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by KLiK at Sep 18, 2018 10:21:28 AM]
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Mumak
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Re: Suddenly 91% complete

I think that at least the approximate number of total batches is known from the beginning. Sure, it can change, but I don't think that happens too often and even if, we're OK with that. If that would happen, we'd notice it immediately on the percentage completed and know why it happened. Forget any performance estimations, we're aiming for a simple indicator. Of course this won't work for a precise ECD estimation, which would also require to include the current throughput in calculation. Such estimation could be left to your thread ;-)

As for SCC, I believe that change in throughput is that the units run quicker now. A month ago they took ~2h, now ~1h.
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