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martin64
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

BTW, after a project goes live, we continue to monitor the error rate on a monthly basis. If the error rate exceeds 5% for a research project, then we investigate and make corrections if we are able.

Which, of course, won't happen. Because those whose machines constantly error out will inevitably more them to other projects, reducing the error rate for you.

This is purely polemic, and badly investigated from your side. It just happened recently at HPF2 where the error rate was reduced by introducing newer code.

Regards,
Martin
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[Jul 23, 2010 1:34:02 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

In production, devices that constantly error out on the same science are put on a 1 per day drip for that science until actioned/investigated/reported by the volunteer to either work to resolve the problem or opt-out. This science IS an explicit opt-in at that, the ratings now known where WCG will schedule an investigation and endeavor to find a solution... Some of the sciences are now on version 6.17-6.19... revealing enough for me
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[Jul 23, 2010 2:08:09 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
nasher
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

when CEP round 1 was comming out it originaly had some high issues that made me decide not to run it past the gold badge. if CEP 2 has the same problem with my machines i will probably again opt out and work other results.

as for the quote about healthcare and a 5 % error...
being a person who has undergone thyroid cancer and had lots of tests prior to them determinging if it was cancer or not. some of these tests that they did were eithor yes we know its cancer or shrug dont know time for another test.

I went through over 20 tests that had a >25% error rate (into inconclusive) so your statement is wrong...

i am happy to wait for this project to come live for windows. I understand the delays and am happly waiting.. in 19 days if it isnt out i will have to decide what badge to hunt next while i wait for it. if this shows up earlier than 19 days i may not work it much till then eithor cause of same reason finishing up a badge level.

also when you mentoned a 5% being too high an error.. its not like the result is not retested... another example.. if you misplace your car keys 2 times a month and it takes you a few min to find them is that excessive (about 6% key placement error) .. if this is a serious problem i am totaly messed up cause i misplace my keys at least weekly.

hopeing the work units show up soon but please check them and dont rush we can wait.. its not like our computers dont have anything else we can crunch
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[Jul 23, 2010 6:06:23 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

In production, devices that constantly error out on the same science are put on a 1 per day drip for that science until actioned/investigated/reported by the volunteer to either work to resolve the problem or opt-out.

Interesting point, which doesn't seem to apply here. The RC=0x4 causes devices to almost constantly get an inconclusive, followed by invalid, status. I'm assuming this doesn't count as an "error", as a device can do 2 such WUs per day for weeks without ever being throttled back to 1/day.
[Jul 23, 2010 7:18:02 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Former Member
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

One other extreme example: Consider the gold rush, people standing in a river and try to get some gold out of the stones and sand. An error rate of 99% would have been considered an absolutely terrific result, meaning that within 100 washing exercises they would have found one gold nugget.

I was talking purely about software. If 5% of your bank statements were wrong, I bet your bank wouldn't last long. WCG is an unusual software environment.

I think the 5% is incredibly arbitrary. Surely the measure should be how hard the error is to fix, not an absolute percentage? If a problem appears to be small, it might be worth fixing. For that matter, if a WCG project had a 10% error rate, but would have to be largely re-written to fix, it might be worth accepting a 10% error rate.

My main point is the lack of communication causes a big waste of time. If anything slower than a P4 is effectively being ignored, how easy would it have been, right at beta time, to say "don't even bother to report errors from anything pre-P4, because we're not even going to look at them"? See, simple. Sure, there might still be discussion between users, but without any expectation of any reply from techs or of a fix. And, if the techs respond, a simple "this error means such-and-such routine is failing at blah-blah stage and because of the low number of machines affected, we don't have time to fix it" would suffice. How simple, eh?
[Jul 23, 2010 7:40:22 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Sekerob
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

In production, devices that constantly error out on the same science are put on a 1 per day drip for that science until actioned/investigated/reported by the volunteer to either work to resolve the problem or opt-out.

Interesting point, which doesn't seem to apply here. The RC=0x4 causes devices to almost constantly get an inconclusive, followed by invalid, status. I'm assuming this doesn't count as an "error", as a device can do 2 such WUs per day for weeks without ever being throttled back to 1/day.

Aborts and Errors and Invalids go towards the demerit for all I know and if latter does not, it's something to consider... but why speculate, here's the first line of the logic notes from knreed:

"It is updated for each valid or invalid result as shown below:"

The number will go down to 1, no matter how slow the return is. It's not like you're building credit for unused quota. Then, if you're happy to return invalid results, there's these period reports and the hand wrench to force the attention. It's not like WCG is happy to continue to receive invalid tasks from zombies. The old UD client in that was better. There would be an actual pop up, and on that to end this item, the 6.12 client is getting a notification function.

edit: Just don't know if your OS will support it. Maverick Meerkat Linux 10.10 is not going to support any CPU below a 686 either.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sekerob at Jul 23, 2010 8:56:04 PM]
[Jul 23, 2010 8:53:53 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
JmBoullier
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

And, if the techs respond, a simple "this error means such-and-such routine is failing at blah-blah stage and because of the low number of machines affected, we don't have time to fix it" would suffice. How simple, eh?
As far as I remember when/if the techs are able to give such an answer they do fix the problem.

Most of the time problems like the one you are after have unknown reasons, i.e. one knows which part of the code is producing the error code but there is no obvious and repeatable reason why it happens, particularly if it is for some particular processor. This time you are interested with one affecting some slower processors, but there is another one affecting some i7's. Not all of them, and not always, even in the same machine. Finding these reasons is what actually takes time. Fixing the code is not at all proportional to the time it can take to find which part of the code has to be fixed, and for these "stealth" problems the fix is generally much faster once it can be identified.

I am surprised that a professional like you ignores that. Or maybe you pretend to ignore it to feel authorized to bash the techs and WCG?
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[Jul 24, 2010 12:26:00 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

I seem to be the lucky owner of a computer that almost always produces valid results. I have had a few problems with HPF2 (endless loop) and I was caught a few years back by some project code that ran on Intel CPUs but not on AMD CPUs. But I remember the incredible frustration I felt as a working programmer trying to track down bugs that would only occur on certain computers. I once tracked such a problem down to a program running in the background that needed updating, but that was on my own computer, which was loaded for all sorts of software environments. In general the problem would occur on somebody else's computer and I would not have access to it. Usually I would just have to mutter and shrug. Add a note to the program log documenting the error and drink another cup of coffee. You need to be able to stand a lot of frustration or you burn out early.

The WCG projects are running on computers all over the world with an incredible number of software environments. I doubt that any large program will run without any errors caused by conflicts. So I am not surprised to hear that the WCG staff only concentrate on fixing errors that are having a substantial effect on the results. That is good software management.

I understand why Kremmen feels so frustrated that his computer has a conflict with one of the project programs. But frustration of that sort is endemic in the software profession. Taking it out on other people is unprofessional. But we all of us are occasionally guilty of letting our personal frustration show. Other people have pointed this out to Kremmen. Now we should let the subject drop, instead of piling up on Kremmen like an over-enthusiastic high school football team.

Lawrence
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Dataman
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?



The WCG projects are running on computers all over the world with an incredible number of software environments. I doubt that any large program will run without any errors caused by conflicts. So I am not surprised to hear that the WCG staff only concentrate on fixing errors that are having a substantial effect on the results. That is good software management.

I understand why Kremmen feels so frustrated that his computer has a conflict with one of the project programs. But frustration of that sort is endemic in the software profession. Taking it out on other people is unprofessional. But we all of us are occasionally guilty of letting our personal frustration show. Other people have pointed this out to Kremmen. Now we should let the subject drop, instead of piling up on Kremmen like an over-enthusiastic high school football team.

Lawrence

Well said as usual, Lawrence. applause
There is enough frustration in this complicated world without either side dwelling on trivial things. Peace Kremmen and crunch on ... peace

cowboy
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[Jul 24, 2010 1:50:10 AM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ingleside
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Re: Windows Launch still July 17th?

Aborts and Errors and Invalids go towards the demerit for all I know and if latter does not, it's something to consider... but why speculate, here's the first line of the logic notes from knreed:

"It is updated for each valid or invalid result as shown below:"

Yes, this seems to be an accurate description of the new per-application quota-system... But, I've not seen any indication WCG has upgraded their scheduling-server resently, so until WCG upgrades, they're using the old quota-code, and this doesn't decrease the quota for validation-errors. Also, the biggest weakness of the old code is that someone that runs a mix of WCG-projects, can happily continue trashing many tasks in a single project, but will continue getting a full quota since the tasks in the other WCG-projects keeps the quota high.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Ingleside at Jul 24, 2010 12:01:20 PM]
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