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Jim1348
Veteran Cruncher USA Joined: Jul 13, 2009 Post Count: 1066 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think you need some reading comprehension help. What is negative about WCG in what I said? I was criticizing the notion that there is some sort of development "schedule", as though it were a Microsoft product. The economics are different when you are giving the service away free to whomever wants it. Of course the developers will be overloaded in that case. What is NOT negative about this sentence for example: "There is probably no way to compute the real-world value of this anyway in the research stage, fun though it may be for us to think that it is going to save the world". Or this: "For all I know, they should be doing less and saving on the electric bill". Save your sarcasm for yourself and quit folding and do something "meanful" in your life, rather than sitting here and complain about it. I think economic reality is not some people's strong point. That was not sarcasm at all. You aren't looking at shrink-wrap software here, but a research project. Did you ever do one in graduate school yourself? How much did you pay for the software? How much support can you expect for that? I don't think you are looking at my words, but at your preconceptions. |
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Sekerob
Ace Cruncher Joined: Jul 24, 2005 Post Count: 20043 Status: Offline |
Plz let's not bicker over who's the smartest in the club or I'll send you mother superior.
----------------------------------------Too many lost in translations, so here's my version: This is science and there are limited human and financial resources so eventually if the error rates are small enough and the further reduction becomes disproportionate, that fallout eradication effort ends and is calculated into the price. WCG accepts that errors happen... yes they know it's your electricity, computer, time... they're all too aware. If it's their science apps fault for which a list is maintained in the validators, and if one is known, credit for time/result/points is given, which of course is to the one having the [benign] error not satisfactory... rarely is. WCG servers monitor this and will eventually cut off the specific science tasks assignments to a device to 1 per day until problem is solved, or send alternate work if that option is selected [think it's how the 'alternate' works... they'll still send alternate if allowed]. We have to accept that nothing is perfect and some devices just are not able to do it right when the fastest majority does. If it's yours, then we all feel truly sorry... but that's all the compensation that volunteer computing can offer. cheers
WCG
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Dataman
Ace Cruncher Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Post Count: 4865 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Plz let's not bicker over who's the smartest in the club or I'll send you mother superior. ![]() ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Interesting themes indeed. But how does it connect to the thread title? And is it typical for the CEP2 project only? Or for linux? Couldn't it be moved to a more general forum section? And linux would deserve (and has) own threads as well. IMHO it is inapproriate to spread linux installation tips over each available thread...
So back to CEP2! ;-) |
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My 2 cents worth
Cruncher Joined: Sep 12, 2008 Post Count: 19 Status: Offline |
Interesting themes indeed. But how does it connect to the thread title? And is it typical for the CEP2 project only? Or for linux? Couldn't it be moved to a more general forum section? And linux would deserve (and has) own threads as well. IMHO it is inapproriate to spread linux installation tips over each available thread... So back to CEP2! ;-) Thank You. ![]() ![]() |
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PecosRiverM
Veteran Cruncher The Great State of Texas Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Post Count: 1054 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Too funny, Sek!! How about a trip to Sister Mary Elephant SSSHHHUUUTTTT UUUPPPP! <ot> Now somebody is giving away their age. ![]() ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Hi Kremmen,
Hey Kremmen, People who work really hard and provide excellent service do not appreciate insults. And maybe people who provide their CPU cycles, internet bandwidth and power for free don't appreciate having bugs that were reported in beta being not only not fixed, but totally ignored.? There are several fundamental operational guidelines we employ when taking a project live: First, going live is not just our decision. It is a joint decision between our team and the research team. Our role is to provide IT support for the researchers. World Community Grid exists, so that researchers from not-for-profit organizations, with limit budgets and limited IT support, can run research. Second, with billions of computers in the world potentially accessing World Community Grid, it's impossible to fix the research apps to work on all computers, especially older ones. If we did that, then we would only be able to run one research project on World Community Grid and we would spend our time fixing the app so that it ran on all computers. Instead, we have decided to establish a reasonable error threshold rate so that we can invest our time toward running multiple research projects simultaneously. The error threshold we have established for World Community Grid is 5%. During Alpha and Beta testing we work on getting the error rate to be below 5%. If it's not less than 5%. it would be a tough call to launch. That's why some launches have to be rescheduled. And when we decide to launch, it's a joint decision between the researchers and the World Community Grid support team. BTW, after a project goes live, we continue to monitor the error rate on a monthly basis. If the error rate exceeds 5% for a research project, then we investigate and make corrections if we are able. Please explain what you mean by "sloppy". If there's something "sloppy" going on, we'll fix it. How about a reply to one of several RC=0x4 bug threads then? We took a close look at your post and the thread it is in and discovered that (1) your computer was in the 5% threshold group (so we weren't going to fix it anyway), and (2) the answers that were provided by the CA's and other members were very good and there's really nothing we could have added to those. Having said that, we are sorry that you felt your request was ignored. We do not have the resources to respond to every post. What we do have is the utmost confidence in replies from the CAs and from other experienced members. I would suggest that in the future, when you get to a point of uncertainty about an error on your computer, that you send an email to the support desk using the Contact Us feature. Thanks for keeping us on our toes!! And thanks for crunching on World Community Grid. |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Second, with billions of computers in the world potentially accessing World Community Grid, it's impossible to fix the research apps to work on all computers, especially older ones. That's strange. Every other WCG app works on Athlon XP/Athlon/P3 machines and every other part of this app works on them too, as far as we can tell. If we did that, then we would only be able to run one research project on World Community Grid and we would spend our time fixing the app so that it ran on all computers. That's simply hype. (as above) The error threshold we have established for World Community Grid is 5%. While I can understand the reasons, that's a very strange universe to be in. In many industries I've been in (e.g. health care), an error rate even 5 orders of magnitude below that would probably lead to bankruptcy. It also seems unnecessarily arbitrary. If the problem is small (as this is likely to be, given that it is totally reproducible and only occurs at exactly the same point every time), it might be worth fixing anyhow. BTW, after a project goes live, we continue to monitor the error rate on a monthly basis. If the error rate exceeds 5% for a research project, then we investigate and make corrections if we are able. Which, of course, won't happen. Because those whose machines constantly error out will inevitably more them to other projects, reducing the error rate for you. We took a close look at your post and the thread it is in and discovered that (1) your computer was in the 5% threshold group (so we weren't going to fix it anyway), and (2) the answers that were provided by the CA's and other members were very good and there's really nothing we could have added to those. If you honestly have no idea what the error code means, then that sounds like appallingly badly documented software and totally justifies the tag of "sloppy". If you do know that the error means, then it would be much quicker and more satisfying if you just told us, rather than giving a justification for the situation. (... which indeed still doesn't justify, imo, not answering the question of what the error means.) |
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martin64
Senior Cruncher Germany Joined: May 11, 2009 Post Count: 445 Status: Offline Project Badges: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The error threshold we have established for World Community Grid is 5%. While I can understand the reasons, that's a very strange universe to be in. In many industries I've been in (e.g. health care), an error rate even 5 orders of magnitude below that would probably lead to bankruptcy. Error is such an inspecific word, and it means a lot of things. Your statement doesn't make any sense to me. Of course an error in medical treatment could have fatal consequences, and everything needs to be done to get the error rate down to about zero. One other extreme example: Consider the gold rush, people standing in a river and try to get some gold out of the stones and sand. An error rate of 99% would have been considered an absolutely terrific result, meaning that within 100 washing exercises they would have found one gold nugget. In WCG, if an error occurs, that particular work done on a computer will be lost. Noone will be injured or have damage. It's a matter of statistics - only 95% of the work is really useful, up to 5% are overhead. It means 95% efficiency - not that bad. There are industries that have a lot more overhead. Carbon power plants, to mention one. Regards, Martin ![]() |
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Former Member
Cruncher Joined: May 22, 2018 Post Count: 0 Status: Offline |
Second, with billions of computers in the world potentially accessing World Community Grid, it's impossible to fix the research apps to work on all computers, especially older ones. That's strange. Every other WCG app works on Athlon XP/Athlon/P3 machines and every other part of this app works on them too, as far as we can tell You questions and concerns have been asked and answered, and it sounds like they have not improved your situation. You are mad at WCG and we all understand that you feel this way, but you have reached the brick wall. Sorry for your situation. Its your choice. |
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